"Casual Data" just cost me $75 for last billing period!!

e · Joined: 24 Jan 2008 Posts: 2

Ten year business customer with many lines, Power Vision
on this one with Treo 755p. I understand that Power
Vision give me unlimited access to the web via the
phone, plus email, etc.

When I extended this contract and bought the Treo CSR
told me that my account had a code that permitted
"casual data" use, by which my new Treo could be used as
a modem when traveling, etc.

Last month I went on a trip and used the phone as a
modem for 2-3 hours. The bill just arrived with a charge
for $75 - entitled "PCS DATA".

First, is there really such a thing as "casual data"?

Second, what does it cost to have unlimited data?

Third, is that $75 arguable?

Archived from group: alt>cellular>sprintpcs

Jack Hamilton · Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 15

e wrote:

>Ten year business customer with many lines, Power Vision
>on this one with Treo 755p. I understand that Power
>Vision give me unlimited access to the web via the
>phone, plus email, etc.
>
>When I extended this contract and bought the Treo CSR
>told me that my account had a code that permitted
>"casual data" use, by which my new Treo could be used as
>a modem when traveling, etc.
>
>Last month I went on a trip and used the phone as a
>modem for 2-3 hours. The bill just arrived with a charge
>for $75 - entitled "PCS DATA".
>
>First, is there really such a thing as "casual data"?

Apparently so.

Sprint considers phone-as-modem use to be something different from
data-to-phone use. I'm not sure how you would know that - it used to
be clear on the Sprint web site, but I just looked on their web site
and it isn't clear now.

>Second, what does it cost to have unlimited data?

Depends on your base plan, but probably 39.95-59.95 per month.

>Third, is that $75 arguable?

It's always arguable. I don't know whether it's winnable, but being a
long term customer with many lines might help. Just don't threaten
them.

DTC · Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 234

e wrote:
> Third, is that $75 arguable?

No. The TOS prohibits tethering.

Todd Wade · Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 8

On Jan 24, 1:19 pm, e wrote:
> Ten year business customer with many lines, Power Vision
> on this one with Treo 755p. I understand that Power
> Vision give me unlimited access to the web via the
> phone, plus email, etc.
> Last month I went on a trip and used the phone as a
> modem for 2-3 hours. The bill just arrived with a charge
> for $75 - entitled "PCS DATA".
>
> First, is there really such a thing as "casual data"?

Yes

> Second, what does it cost to have unlimited data?

$50.00/month: http://tinyurl.com/2bypcw

> Third, is that $75 arguable?

Well, this probably depends on the person(s) you try to argue it with.
Some CSRs will apologize and tell you the'll fix it right away, and
others will say you have to pay for services you use.

In my opinion, as a "business customer with many lines" and "on a trip
and use[ing] the phone as a modem for 2-3 hours" you should have known
this.

Todd W.

e · Joined: 24 Jan 2008 Posts: 2

Thanks for the information.

What IS "casual data"? I can't find a definition.

When I talked with Sprint about using the 755p as a
modem while traveling, the CSR said that would be fine
and did not try to sell me a data plan. And, there's no
doubt about the promise that "a code is on your account
permitting casual data..."

none · Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

"e" wrote:
> Last month I went on a trip and used the phone as a modem for 2-3 hours.
> The bill just arrived with a charge for $75 - entitled "PCS DATA".

This is quite odd. Are you sure that they're charging you for the modem use
specifically and it's not just some screw-up involving Power Vision being
incorrectly applied to your account? I use my phone as a modem whenever my
DSL goes down and I've never been charged for it.

~None

Seth Goodman · Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 6

In article on Thu, 24 Jan 2008
08:07:12 -0800, e wrote:

> Thanks for the information.
>
> What IS "casual data"? I can't find a definition.
>
> When I talked with Sprint about using the 755p as a
> modem while traveling, the CSR said that would be fine
> and did not try to sell me a data plan. And, there's no
> doubt about the promise that "a code is on your account
> permitting casual data..."
>

You might have more success posting this question to the Sprint forum at
www.howardforums.com. There's a much larger user base, including Sprint
employees, on that forum.

I don't know the full answer to your question, but here's my imperfect
attempt:

1) Modem use is a special case of data use. The unlimited data in your
Power Vision plan doesn't cover modem use. All the carriers (AFAIK)
charge separately for modem use, not just Sprint.

2)"Casual" data is data charged at an ala carte rate when you don't have
a specific plan. IIRC, casual modem use is $.05 per KB, though I can't
tell you why I think that.

Normally, using your phone as modem is prohibited unless you have a
$30/month phone-as-modem (PAM) plan,which gives you unlimited modem use.
This prohibition is not just contractual - apparently when you use your
phone as a modem, there is some kind of accompanying "signal" that tells
Sprint that's what you're trying to do. When the system detects the
"signal", it checks if you are permitted to use your phone as modem. If
not, you get blocked.

In your case, apparently you've been set up as allowed to use your phone
as a modem, so Sprint won't block that use. However, since you don't
have a PAM plan, you're paying the casual data rate.

How often do you use the phone as modem? If it truly is very limited,
it may make sense to pay the occasional charge, even $75, rather than
$30 every month.

If you call Sprint and explain that you didn't understand the potential
for high charges, they may be willing to help you out, especially if you
decide to add the $30 PAM plan to your phone. They might be willing to
add the plan retroactively.

--
Seth Goodman

none · Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

"Seth Goodman" wrote:
> This prohibition is not just contractual - apparently when you use your
> phone as a modem, there is some kind of accompanying "signal" that tells
> Sprint that's what you're trying to do. When the system detects the
> "signal", it checks if you are permitted to use your phone as modem. If
> not, you get blocked.

This sounds like BS to me. How can sprint tell that your phone is doing NAT
masquerading for other devices?

~None

DTC · Joined: 03 Nov 2007 Posts: 234

Paul Miner wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:52:55 -0600, DTC
> wrote:
>
>> e wrote:
>>> Third, is that $75 arguable?
>> No. The TOS prohibits tethering.
>
> I believe that's incorrect.

When I had Sprint ummm...five years ago, the TOS prohibited servers and
and a few other things, but didn't specially mention tethering the
handset. But when I look at it again a year ago, I thought it now
mentioned handsets.

Oh, ok..here it is. You have to have a data plan,

Services are not available for use in connection with server devices or
host computer applications, other systems that drive continuous heavy
traffic or data sessions, or as substitutes for private lines or frame
relay connections. Except with phone-as-modem plans, you may not use a
phone (including a Bluetooth phone) on a plan with unlimited
Vision/Power Vision as a modem in connection with a computer, PDA, or
similar device. We reserve the right to deny or terminate service
without notice for any misuse. Availability of downloadable or streaming
content is subject to change.

Joel Koltner · Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 23

"none" wrote in message $y54.189@trnddc03...
> "Seth Goodman" wrote:
> This sounds like BS to me. How can sprint tell that your phone is doing NAT
> masquerading for other devices?

Because the phone has to be commanded to connect by that "other device" (over
either USB or Bluetooth), so the phone simply sets the appropriate flag that
gets sent to Sprint when that connection is made.

There are far more technical descriptions and names related to this process
that you can find on the Sprint hacking sights.

Products like PDAnet essentially "work around" the detection by taking over
the connection process and then just asking for a "regular" data session like
any other application on the phone itself would.

Todd Allcock · Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 793

At 24 Jan 2008 23:46:20 +0000 none wrote:

> > This prohibition is not just contractual - apparently when you use your
> > phone as a modem, there is some kind of accompanying "signal" that tells
> > Sprint that's what you're trying to do. When the system detects the
> > "signal", it checks if you are permitted to use your phone as modem. If
> > not, you get blocked.
>
> This sounds like BS to me. How can sprint tell that your phone is doing
NAT
> masquerading for other devices?

According to a Sprint corporate buddy of mine, they can't tell (or at least
don't try to hard.) They look at usage patterns- i.e. a typical
"dumbphone" doesn't download 10GB/month unless it's tethered, etc.

Besides, they'd fire off a warning rather than a $75 bill.

I guess the question I had (as a non-Sprint user) reading the thread is,
what is "casual data"- is it some sort of no-monthly-fee pay-by-the-kb plan
instead of an unlimited plan? If so, that could easily explain why the OP
ran up a $75 bill.

none · Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

"Paul Miner" wrote:
> When a handset initiates a data connection to the network, it has to
> present its NAI (among other things) to the AAA for authentication.
> Current handsets have two NAI's assigned for data use, one for
> 'normal' mode and one for 'tethered' mode. The handset knows which
> mode it's in and presents the proper NAI to the AAA.

Hrm...ok -- gotcha. I removed all the Sprint modifications from my device,
so maybe it's not using this method and is just acting as a plain old NAT. I
have also been able to use it as a WAP for my notebook without being
charged.

~None

Todd Allcock · Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 793

At 24 Jan 2008 21:13:38 -0600 Paul Miner wrote:

> >According to a Sprint corporate buddy of mine, they can't tell (or at
least
> >don't try to hard.) They look at usage patterns- i.e. a typical
> >"dumbphone" doesn't download 10GB/month unless it's tethered, etc.
>
> That was correct up till a couple of years ago when they started the
> dual NAI approach. With most handsets, now they can tell.

Ahh, thanks for the update. That explains all of the interest in certain
models of older phones on HowardForums.

> >I guess the question I had (as a non-Sprint user) reading the thread is,
> >what is "casual data"- is it some sort of no-monthly-fee pay-by-the-kb
plan
> >instead of an unlimited plan? If so, that could easily explain why the
OP
> >ran up a $75 bill.
>
> Yes, that's what casual data usage means, as someone else pointed out
> earlier in the thread.

I must have missed that- sorry. Then the $75 bill isn't really a mystery
then, is it? Wink

Joel Koltner · Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 23

"none" wrote in message $Ev6.2847@trndny07...
> Hrm...ok -- gotcha. I removed all the Sprint modifications from my device,
> so maybe it's not using this method and is just acting as a plain old NAT. I
> have also been able to use it as a WAP for my notebook without being
> charged.

What model phone do you have? As others mentioned, some of the older phones
didn't yet contain software that discriminated between the two modes.

(The "fanciest" PDA-type phone that still fell into this category was the
PPC-6700 -- I believe that's part of the reason it still commands a pretty
fair price on eBay.)

The hard-core phone hacker guys routinely change the OS to work around the
dual NAI "issue," but they're at the level where if you screw up something in
the process you can brick the phone.

none · Joined: 28 Nov 2007 Posts: 17

"Joel Koltner" wrote:
> What model phone do you have?

I use a Mogul (PPC-6800) with dcd's custom ROM:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=345087

> The hard-core phone hacker guys routinely change the OS to work around the
> dual NAI "issue," but they're at the level where if you screw up something
> in the process you can brick the phone.

Hrm...seems like getting rid of all the custom Sprint stuff may have saved
me from a big surprise bill. Thanks for the information.

~None

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